Posts by City Fan

83

To the Nations of Israel and Palestine

by Brownboy in

jw
friends

City Fan

I agree funky

JCanon was great. Where did he go? As you say at least he put some thought into it. I learned a great deal about archaeoastronomy and chronology trying to refute his wacky ideas. Brownboy has nothing on the drag queen messiah!

CF.

67

Pivitol Date Stuff

by IP_SEC in

i dont "get" the whole 1914 thing.

the 'prophetic rule'?

day fer a year?

City Fan

Scholar,

Yet again, no references and not much thought!

I simply explain that there are no biblical problems with the WT interpretation of the seventy years because it is directly based on Jeremiah, Chronicles, Daniel and Zechariah

Don't you realise that Chronicles, Daniel and Zechariah are giving different interpretations of the original 70 years prophecy of Jeremiah.

The Chronicler has the 70 years fulfilled in 539 BC when the royalty of Persia comes to power. Zechariah has the 70 years still running in 519 BC. Just read Zechariah 1:12 again. "O LORD of hosts, how long wilt thou have no mercy on Jerusalem and the cities of Judah, against which thou hast had indignation these seventy years?" This is present tense. I'd like to see just one reference that explains this as a past 70 year period!

And as for Daniel, he rejects the original 70 year prophecy as not being fulfilled in 539 BC and says God actually meant 70 weeks of years. This is because the exile never really stopped. In 539 BC Judea then came under Persian rule and stayed that way for about 200 years. Interesting how Daniel says that the 70 weeks of years should be first split up into a period of 7 weeks of years, or 49 years, roughly the length of time from the destruction of the temple in 587 BC to the coming of Cyrus in 539 BC. Daniel is really saying that the 70 years prophecy of Jeremiah has to be re-interpreted as 'seventy weeks of years' or else Jeremiah's prophecy has failed.

CF.

67

Pivitol Date Stuff

by IP_SEC in

i dont "get" the whole 1914 thing.

the 'prophetic rule'?

day fer a year?

City Fan

Scholar, I'll even paste my last response and question to you:

Scholar,

You interpretation is preposterous and is not supported by Bible commentators. Did you bother to check what commentaries have to say on this subject of Zechariah 7:5 and 1:12

Well, yes. From John J Collins 'Daniel' page 349.

seventy years: The reference (in Dan 9:2) is to Jer 25:11,12; 29:10. In Jeremiah's prophecy the seventy years most probably begin from the first capture of Jerusalem by Nebuchadnezzar in 597 B.C.E. In Jer 25:11-12 the context is the desolation of "this land" and the subjugation of the peoples round about. In Jer 29:10 the context is advice to the deportees. [See, however, Kratz (Translatio Imperii, 224-25), who holds that Jer 29:10 refers to the duration of Babylonian supremacy in the west, which he dates from the Battle of Carchemish in 605/604 B.C.E. Ross E.Winckle ("Jeremiah's Seventy Weeks For Babylon: A Re-Assessment. Part II: The Historical Data," 289-299) would push the starting point back to 609 B.C.E. so that it could be accurately fulfilled in 539 B.C.E.]

The seventy years is generally regarded as a round number, equivalent to a lifetime. (Holladay, Jeremiah I, 668-69) The same number is found in the Black Stone of Esarhaddon: Marduk decreed seventy years of desolation for Babylon, when it was destroyed by Sennacherib in 689 B.C.E., but relented and allowed it to be restored after eleven years.

According to 2 Chron 36:20-22, Jeremiah's prophecy referred to the period from the destruction of the temple in 586 B.C.E. and was fulfilled in the restoration under Cyrus (so also Ezra 1:1). According to Zech 1:12, the seventy years extended to the second year of Darius I of Persia (519 B.C.E.)

In the fictional chronology of Daniel, chap 9 is set before the advent of Cyrus. The real author of Daniel, however, wrote long after the Chronicler and Zechariah, and pointedly rejected their interpretation of the prophecy.

It could not have continued till 518 because the seventy years were not fulfilled so the angelic reminder could only referred to something that had already concluded namely the seventy years.

Again, you don't seem to understand that prophetical interpretations can exist in the bible itself. Here is some more background to Zechariah and some commentary on dating the destruction of the temple from Edwin Yamauchi "Persia and the Bible" p155, 159. Hopefully it will show you why the fasting 'these seventy years' extends to the 519 BC.

The Rebuilding of the Jewish Temple: Solomon's temple was destroyed by Nebuchadnezzar in 587 or 586 BC. Although the Jews who had returned under Cyrus had laid the foundation of a second temple in 536 BC, work was halted during the next twenty years in the face of opposition (Ezra 4:1-5). The Lord then raised up two prophets to stir the people to action (Ezra 5:1).

Beginning on August 29, 520 BC (Hag 1:1), and continuing until December 18 (Hag 2:1-9, 20ff), Haggai delivered a series of three messages to provoke the people into recommencing work on the temple. Two months after Haggai's first message, Zechariah joined him (Zech 1:1).

The temple was thus finished on March 12, 515 BC, a little over seventy years after it's destruction. As the renewed work on the temple had begun September 21, 520 BC (Hag 1:4-15), sustained effort had been expended for four years and three months by the inspired community.

Footnote: Scholars such as Albright, Freedman, Tadmor and Wiseman, who believe that the Jews used a calendar beginning in Nisan (April), date the fall of Jerusalem to the summer of 587 BC. Others such as Horn, Malamat, Redford, Saggs and Thiele, who believe the Jews used a calendar beginning in Tishri (September), date the fall of of Jerusalem to the summer of 586 BC. See H. Tadmor "Chronology of the Last Kings of Judah", p226-30; S. Horn, "The Babylonian Chronicle and the Ancient Calendar of the Kingdon of Judah", p 12-27; K. Freedy and D. Redford, "The Dates in Ezekiel in Relation to Biblical, Babylonian and Egyptian Sources", p462-85;

Hopefully you can see now why some scholars choose 586 and some 587. If Jonsson chooses 587 as the date it does not invalidate the rest of his research, as you seem to think it does.

This is not WT interpretation but an observation based upon many commentaries.

O.K. Your turn, Scholar. Which commentaries and please provide some quotations.

CF.

67

Pivitol Date Stuff

by IP_SEC in

i dont "get" the whole 1914 thing.

the 'prophetic rule'?

day fer a year?

City Fan

Scholar,

Will you for once in your posting life post something, anything with some substance, references, thought, or research! My last debate with you on this subject was as futile as the rest. You asked for references and they were given. You were asked for the same and then did a runner as usual. Here's the thread:

http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/10/82648/1.ashx

God, you're thick!

67

Pivitol Date Stuff

by IP_SEC in

i dont "get" the whole 1914 thing.

the 'prophetic rule'?

day fer a year?

City Fan

One thing I have to believe is what the bible says over secular history

Why?

Anyway, here are two verses that show the bible agrees with 587 for the fall of Jerusalem:

Zephaniah 1:1,12: "In the eighth month, in the second year of Darius, the word of the LORD came to Zechari'ah.....Then the angel of the LORD said, `O LORD of hosts, how long wilt thou have no mercy on Jerusalem and the cities of Judah, against which thou hast had indignation these seventy years?'".

Darius' second year was 519/518 BC so 'these seventy years' would have begun around 587 BC.

CF.

7

jehavah an hallelujah

by lurk in

why does the nwt print the word hallelujah but use and e not and a in jehovah?.

please xplain it simply if you know cause my brain left me and has moved abroad.

lurk

City Fan

Glitter is right,

Halleluyah is a composite of Hallelu and Yah. It literally translates from Hebrew as "Praise Jah/Yah, [you people!]" or simply "Praise Jah/Yah!" Jah/Yah is the shortened form of the name Jehovah/Yahweh.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Halleluyah

CF.

48

Beatles or Rolling Stones Fan, which were/are you?

by eyeslice in

jw
friends

perhaps you have to be one of those who grew up in the 60's to really appreciate this thread, but then my kids love 60's music too.

who did you think were the best, the beatles or the rolling stones?

is there a bit of a psychological angle here too?

City Fan

The stones tryed to copy the beatles a little bit early on

Probably because Lennon and McCartney wrote the Stones first hit 'I wanna be your man'.

The Beatles are the greatest ever! And I'm glad to see Led Zep get so many mentions.

And for you Yanks who like British bands, go out and buy the following CDs:

Keane and Franz Ferdinand! You just have to!

CF.

28

pRE-FLOOD PEOPLE were techologically advanced!

by badboy in

jw
friends

they had batteries in india, so i am told by a jw(i think it was iraq,actually!

),they have discovered all kinds of objects, suggesting that pre-flood people were almost as advanced as modern people.. look at the turin shroud,they certainly have printing?

(or whatever) to produce it!.